Quote by PlunkiesThat's it? You just
want 1 error from the bible? Are you sure? I can literally give you hundreds.
Everything from failed prophecies, scientific inaccuracies, faulty logic,
blatent lies from jesus and even moral/ethical problems. However, since you're
brainwashed by your religion, I'm guessing I can list out every single one and
you'll find a way to slither out from under them all. Nevertheless, you ask, so
you shall recieve (unlike praying).
Crack that bible up and within the first few pages you'll be told snakes eat
dust and man has one less rib than women. This might surprise you but both are
incorrect. The bible also
supports a flat earth. The bible even says plants were created before the
sun. Ever learn about photosynthesis in 4th grade? Unfortunately the writers of
the bible did not.
Jesus tells us numerous times that anything asked for in prayer will be
recieved. Go ahead, pray for something now. Here, quote a bible verse while
you're at it...
John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who
believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these
will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do
it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name,
I will do it."
Ask for a thousand dollars in a brown paper bag to appear infront of you. Jesus
will give you ANYTHING and NOTHING is impossilbe.
Mark 11:24: "Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe
that you have received it, and it will be yours."
Matthew 17:20 "For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of
mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it
will move; and nothing will be impossible to you."
Go on, pray for something impossible and see if Jesus grants it. He won't, and
you'll then try to make excuses for Jesus. Unfortunately no matter what excuse
you come up with you can't get around Jesus lying.
Do you like slavery? Do you think slavery is wrong? Well it isn't, at least not
according to god. If you think slavery is wrong they you disagree with the
all-knowing, all-powerful creator of the universe.
Exodus Chapter 21, verse 20: "If a man beats his male or female slave with
a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not
to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his
property."
God loves slavery as long as you don't kill your slave, just beat him horribly
and you'll be ok.
Do I have to keep going? Because I most certainly can. That's enough to get you
started though, go make up excuses for your mythology
now.
LOL! Keep going Plunkies! Where did you get these?
reply to your idea on free will vs omniscient Christian God:
- God can be so smart / knowledgeable that he / she knows EVERY POSSIBLE
choice... and the effect of every single choice on the world and where the world
would go given the set of choices preceding those events etc.... I don't think
it is necessarily one or the other. If God knew EXACTLY how we are going to be
and go and say... then yes I agree that free will is less, though not
necessarily totally out of the question, something plausible. If God is just so
omniscient that NO real choice, action, or anything like that is a
"surprise" then that would make sense. Cause if I gave you a choice to
steal a pack of gum or not steal, if you did steal it, it would be logical for
me to conclude that there is an increased likelihood of you getting
"caught" and it's not necessarily that I've determined what you will
or will not do, but rather, if you do or don't, I won't be surprised at the
outcome given a small amount of environmental factors. Just my 2 cents, let me
know what you think !
Hello plunkies, just stopped by to say that you debate well in the religous
forum, but also to warn you that debating with persocom is a never ending
battle. But i'm sure you already know that.
Shinsen89( Mt-Atheists Group Admin. )
* i would like to invite you to Mt-Atheists, and it would be good to add you for
i'm sure more disscusion would insue.
If you wish to find answers don't settle on conclusions that the website gives,
but instead ask more questions. Only one who seeks will find the
answers.
Luke 11:9 "And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye
shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you."
merged: 07-30-2006 ~ 08:58pm
To answer the question:
Why won't god heal amputees?
From a purely logical, or scientific, perspective, if the universe offers
evidence of design, the nature of the designer is an irrelevant and seperate
issue. However if you are interested in theodicy anyway, I'll recommend this
link for further reading: http://www.math.utep.edu/Faculty/sewell/articles/pain.html
... the other link I provided requires some downloading and it took a long time
for me to finish however this one is better in this aspect.
You don't have super powers, it's basically just a memory hiccup. Sorry
I know that i havent super powers but it is incredible that its the feeling that
you have if it happend,and sorry,for my bad memory if i allready thanked for you
opinion in my thread.
So thank you
Hi plunkies...
should have wrote here some time ago...
I wanna thank yer for an unintentional push on the back to move forward, I am
losing the elements of having fun argueing against IGNORANT IMBECILLES... wont
state who but i know you know who you know i meant....
*Sigh... Should really post something smart next time...
Quote by PlunkiesWow thanks again for
posting this. You posted almost an identical post in a different thread as well.
And you probably still don't see the irony in misspelling the word
"ignorant". Again I'll explain that the evolutionary theory, or any
scientific theory for that matter, will never become a law and vice versa. A
scientific theory can be a fact and a theory at the same time. I'd also like to
point out that the Bible is much older and ignorant than The Origin of Species,
but whatever.
Hehe! Well, i never read the bible myself. For I am not a christian, but tell
you what, I really disagree with the evolution theory. Although there are some
sign that evolution does happen in our everyday life! From the moment we are
born until we die! Growing does mean evolving! For the fact that we are alive is
that because our body makes changes to cope up with the imabalances of the
envirnment. Anyway, here's my question, What makes you believe that we evolved
from the apes? I mean who would like to insult his/her own specie? I'm not
convinced with the Evolution theory! For God created us! If you could just
appreciate the world around you, then you would realize that there is a Supreme
Being who have shown us Mercy to make us settle in this world for a while...
Think about it, you will not loose anything if you BELIEVE in the One True God!
The Most Merciful Most Gracious...
I just wanted to say i liked your post on is there a Super Natrual being, and i
also thought that you did a good job of proving the persons idea incorrect that
athiests are less imagainative,( for i am one). Just thought i'd notify you of
that.
Again Plunky you are proving yourself to be so entrusting of others to prove
your points without even researching them. Talk about the ultimate example of
blind faith. This is getting pretty damn pathetic.
The argument that I represented wasn't McDowell's but CS Lewis. The site you
referenced, oh how happy you must have been to find something, made a big
distinction between the two.
Second, once again, this website is full of shit. It clearly uses the following
statement to be a truth in order to prove it's point. This statement is false
and can be proven so:
"Jesus claims to be God
Lewis speaks vaguely of "the sort of things Jesus said" and "just
what He said", while McDowell comes right to the point[4]:
Jesus claimed to be God. He did not leave any other options. His claim to be God
must be either true or false and is something that should be given serious
consideration.
Exactly what Jesus claimed is not known. The gospels are the closest thing we
have to an account of his claims, and there is no explicit claim of divinity by Jesus
in the gospels, let alone an unambiguous theological statement of
what precisely it might mean for a man to claim to be God. (Obviously the
Christian church came to think that Jesus was God, though even they had trouble
determining what that meant, as witnessed by centuries of "heresies"
concerning this issue). Much of what is often interpreted as suggesting divinity
comes from the fourth gospel, but this is considered to be of relatively late
authorship (compared to the synoptics) and may reflect theological ideas
developed in the early church or those of the author, and may thus be removed
from the actual claims/sayings of Jesus. This is not to urge a particular
interpretation of John, but to make the point that there is not a clear
consensus on the historical claims of Jesus, or how his words as we have them
should be interpreted in context."
Italics and bold are added by me. I'm sure you're aware that this has been an
old argument that has been refuted over and over again and is clearly false. His
divine claims are all over the place. Once again, if this is a premise to make a
conclusion then the conclusion is false. No reason to quote the verses but I
certainly can show them to you.
Great job. Please note the heavy sarcasism. Once again you've shown you have NO
idea what you're debating about and all you do is quote some website that you
don't even attempt to question. Ha. I laugh at your arguing abilities.
merged: 03-18-2006 ~ 11:22am
I'm going to let the above post stand but I need to ask you to forgive me. My
frustration with your arguments is unnecessary no matter what I feel abou
them.
So, with that said, I apologize. From this point on I will address all posts
without any derogatory comments. They do
absolutely nothing in this type of format - or any other for that matter. I will
address you as if I'm talking to my neighbor and will attempt to provide
necessary evidence with my remarks. However, I will say, not all
"evidence" comes from other sources. All sources should be allowed in
order to get a total picture of what is being discussed.
Again, I allowed you to get under my skin and I expressed it. Won't happen
again.
Thank you for your active participation and interesting input in the forums. I
do ask though, that you refrain from using belittling language in posts. I
understand that disagreements in discussions can escalate and become quite
heated (or get increasingly frustrating), but I would like to keep the forums a
friendly place.
That being said, keep posting! I'm sure many members find them interesting. =)
THANK YOU. I read your arguments in the thread "What is the point of
following christianity" and your EXCELLENT argument with a fundie in the
miracles thread, and I have got to say that I admire you. You have voiced years
of my frustration with fundies with perfect logic and elegance, against the
bone-headed legions of christ. Again, thank you, friend!
Hah, wow. Thanks for this. I love how the URL can be read "I am
atheist" and "I am a theist". The site itself is great too. I
assume you know it's a joke site though right? I don't
think it's fair to label it under theist reasoning...Although I doubt the
legitimate ones would be any more logical now that I think about
it.
Well the site hinted at it when I saw it by things like:
Quote: Remember, atheists will
condemn you for living by this code because they are shamed by your obvious
moral superiority and "irritated" by your joyous song and
proselytizing.
And:
Quote: By visiting this Web site
you have announced to the world that you are a theist! This announcement is
permanent and irrevocable -- our automated system has already sent notification
of your rebirth to the Lord our God via Yahoo Instant
MessengerTM.
Actually when I first saw it I thought it was legitimate... you can never tell.
Some of the "arguments" there made more sense than those I've seen
from theists, oddly enough.
Quote by PlunkiesWhat is the point? I
suppose the point would be different for everyone. An easier question would be
what is the reason. The answer to that is quite simple. People are sheep. They
want to be a part of a group, they want acceptance from those around them, and
they like having ideas that don't require too much thought or make them to deal
with anything.
Oh I'm going to die? That's scary and I can't cope with that, so I'll extend my
life forever by "believing" there's an eternal afterlife. I can't see
my loved ones after they're dead? Well gee that sucks, maybe they'll be there up
in heaven with me too since I'm already living forever. Oh I can't figure out
the origin of life? Ok a supreme being did it, that's convenient! What's the
meaning of life? To worship our supreme being and get into heaven of course. But
most people just accept Christianity for the convenience of it. I don't honestly
believe a smart, reasonable person could truly believe such stories. If you
really thought your ETERNITY was dependent upon this blink of an eye life on
Earth you'd drop everything and start working to be as good of a Christian as
physically possible. But you don't. It wouldn't be convenient, and you probably
settled on Christianity for the sake of convenience in the first place. And
you'll still be afraid to die despite the fact that you "know" there's
a heaven waiting for you in the afterlife full of eternal happiness and bliss
(why the heck would you want to go there? I'd be afraid too!).
You're not sure what the point of Christianity is because you were born into the
religion. You never really chose to be a Christian, the ideas were simply
pounded into your head like a square peg into a round hole. If you had chosen
the best path for you on your own then you'd have already known what the point
of it was right?
kyokujitsu: "It all comes down to whether you choose to believe or not,
choose to be open-minded and accepting about what religious people say, or
choose, as I see it, to be stubborn and believe in nothing but your own
abilities."
I'm not sure you understand what "open-minded" means. Here's a hint,
it doesn't mean agreeing with your specific beliefs. You don't see the irony in
your statement? (you seriously chose the word "stubborn"?) You say
"believe in nothing" and I say "grounded in reality". I am
open-minded. Most atheists are open-minded. He may be open to new ideas but that
doesn't mean he has to blindly accept them. Blindly accepting things isn't
open-mindedness, it's faith. You bring solid proof to an atheist that your god
exists and he will have no choice but to believe it just as he believes in the
rest of reality. Until then he's obligated to sort your god into the column
occupied by unicorns and big foot.
eXDream2K5: "I can turn to God in my times of need"
There's another reason. It's easy to turn to a supreme being who's always on
your side when you need help or comfort. But it's a double edged sword.
Something goes wrong in a Christian's life and he turns to God to pray or weep.
The atheist looks to reality and focuses on solving his problems. Guess which
one gets results? But we don't always do what's best for us do we? Perhaps if we
stopped telling everyone there's a perfect heaven after we die we'd get off our
asses and start creating our heaven here on Earth.
joiboidadoughboi:
Of course I'm not naive enough to believe that every single person can choose to
do the right thing on their own. Some need a God to keep them from doing evil
and to keep them moral. So I guess that is the point of Christianity. It's
useful to certain people. Is your atheist friend one of those people? Probably
not, and that's probably why he's atheist.
im sorry i cannot accept your answer as truth. where is your solid proof? you
say that atheists need solid proof to believe anything. where is your solid
proof that solid proof will prove the existence of things? where is your solid
proof that the universe is out there? where is your solid proof that brain is
there? now tell me, have you personally ever beheld your solid proof? im very
interested in your solid proof for everything you've said in your post.
Hi Plunkies! Thanks for your post in what
is the point in following Christianity?! You were missing the most important
reason why I think Christians are Christians. It isn't for convenience. It is
because many of them never even consider the idea of questioning it. Many of
them think, including my mother, "My parents and everyone told me it was
right since I was very little so therefore I don't have to prove it!" Some
people, like my father, say that they can justify their religion with logic and
when they are beaten they go back and say, "You can't prove God, you have
to have faith. You're asking good questions though. Too bad I conveniently can't
answer them and I will never be able to."
Hope you're having fun.
merged: 08-05-2007 ~ 12:25am
Hm, I wonder why you were here so recently yet you didn't post. Kind of ghost-like, like tobiast88. Weird.
LOL! Keep going Plunkies! Where did you get these?
reply to your idea on free will vs omniscient Christian God:
- God can be so smart / knowledgeable that he / she knows EVERY POSSIBLE choice... and the effect of every single choice on the world and where the world would go given the set of choices preceding those events etc.... I don't think it is necessarily one or the other. If God knew EXACTLY how we are going to be and go and say... then yes I agree that free will is less, though not necessarily totally out of the question, something plausible. If God is just so omniscient that NO real choice, action, or anything like that is a "surprise" then that would make sense. Cause if I gave you a choice to steal a pack of gum or not steal, if you did steal it, it would be logical for me to conclude that there is an increased likelihood of you getting "caught" and it's not necessarily that I've determined what you will or will not do, but rather, if you do or don't, I won't be surprised at the outcome given a small amount of environmental factors. Just my 2 cents, let me know what you think !
-Boojitsu21
Hello plunkies, just stopped by to say that you debate well in the religous forum, but also to warn you that debating with persocom is a never ending battle. But i'm sure you already know that.
Shinsen89( Mt-Atheists Group Admin. )
* i would like to invite you to Mt-Atheists, and it would be good to add you for i'm sure more disscusion would insue.
If you wish to find answers don't settle on conclusions that the website gives, but instead ask more questions. Only one who seeks will find the answers.
Recommended for further reading: http://www.designinference.com/documents/2006.05.christian_theodicy.pdf
Luke 11:9 "And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you."
merged: 07-30-2006 ~ 08:58pm
To answer the question:
Why won't god heal amputees?
From a purely logical, or scientific, perspective, if the universe offers evidence of design, the nature of the designer is an irrelevant and seperate issue. However if you are interested in theodicy anyway, I'll recommend this link for further reading: http://www.math.utep.edu/Faculty/sewell/articles/pain.html ... the other link I provided requires some downloading and it took a long time for me to finish however this one is better in this aspect.
I know that i havent super powers but it is incredible that its the feeling that you have if it happend,and sorry,for my bad memory if i allready thanked for you opinion in my thread.
So thank you
Hi plunkies...
should have wrote here some time ago...
I wanna thank yer for an unintentional push on the back to move forward, I am losing the elements of having fun argueing against IGNORANT IMBECILLES... wont state who but i know you know who you know i meant....
*Sigh... Should really post something smart next time...
anyway... thanx... u make my forum life rocks
Hehe! Well, i never read the bible myself. For I am not a christian, but tell you what, I really disagree with the evolution theory. Although there are some sign that evolution does happen in our everyday life! From the moment we are born until we die! Growing does mean evolving! For the fact that we are alive is that because our body makes changes to cope up with the imabalances of the envirnment. Anyway, here's my question, What makes you believe that we evolved from the apes? I mean who would like to insult his/her own specie? I'm not convinced with the Evolution theory! For God created us! If you could just appreciate the world around you, then you would realize that there is a Supreme Being who have shown us Mercy to make us settle in this world for a while... Think about it, you will not loose anything if you BELIEVE in the One True God! The Most Merciful Most Gracious...
Hi Plunkies, if you ever get bored you might have some fun here: http://forums.battlecry.com/
Yes I have a soul! if you don't have one... that's not my problem! Lol.
I don't wanna argue! everybody believes in what they wanna belive, but I have a soul, other wise, the near death experiences will not be possible.
Hi Plunkies! I made the MT-Atheists group and I wanted to know if you wanted to become a member. Thanks for considering it! ^_^
I hope we could have more intelligent talk sometime soon.
Hello
I just wanted to say i liked your post on is there a Super Natrual being, and i also thought that you did a good job of proving the persons idea incorrect that athiests are less imagainative,( for i am one). Just thought i'd notify you of that.
Shinsengumi89
Again Plunky you are proving yourself to be so entrusting of others to prove your points without even researching them. Talk about the ultimate example of blind faith. This is getting pretty damn pathetic.
The argument that I represented wasn't McDowell's but CS Lewis. The site you referenced, oh how happy you must have been to find something, made a big distinction between the two.
Second, once again, this website is full of shit. It clearly uses the following statement to be a truth in order to prove it's point. This statement is false and can be proven so:
"Jesus claims to be God
Lewis speaks vaguely of "the sort of things Jesus said" and "just what He said", while McDowell comes right to the point[4]:
Jesus claimed to be God. He did not leave any other options. His claim to be God must be either true or false and is something that should be given serious consideration.
Exactly what Jesus claimed is not known. The gospels are the closest thing we have to an account of his claims, and there is no explicit claim of divinity by Jesus in the gospels, let alone an unambiguous theological statement of what precisely it might mean for a man to claim to be God. (Obviously the Christian church came to think that Jesus was God, though even they had trouble determining what that meant, as witnessed by centuries of "heresies" concerning this issue). Much of what is often interpreted as suggesting divinity comes from the fourth gospel, but this is considered to be of relatively late authorship (compared to the synoptics) and may reflect theological ideas developed in the early church or those of the author, and may thus be removed from the actual claims/sayings of Jesus. This is not to urge a particular interpretation of John, but to make the point that there is not a clear consensus on the historical claims of Jesus, or how his words as we have them should be interpreted in context."
Italics and bold are added by me. I'm sure you're aware that this has been an old argument that has been refuted over and over again and is clearly false. His divine claims are all over the place. Once again, if this is a premise to make a conclusion then the conclusion is false. No reason to quote the verses but I certainly can show them to you.
Great job. Please note the heavy sarcasism. Once again you've shown you have NO idea what you're debating about and all you do is quote some website that you don't even attempt to question. Ha. I laugh at your arguing abilities.
merged: 03-18-2006 ~ 11:22am
I'm going to let the above post stand but I need to ask you to forgive me. My frustration with your arguments is unnecessary no matter what I feel abou them.
So, with that said, I apologize. From this point on I will address all posts without any derogatory comments. They do absolutely nothing in this type of format - or any other for that matter. I will address you as if I'm talking to my neighbor and will attempt to provide necessary evidence with my remarks. However, I will say, not all "evidence" comes from other sources. All sources should be allowed in order to get a total picture of what is being discussed.
Again, I allowed you to get under my skin and I expressed it. Won't happen again.
Plunkies,
Thank you for your active participation and interesting input in the forums. I do ask though, that you refrain from using belittling language in posts. I understand that disagreements in discussions can escalate and become quite heated (or get increasingly frustrating), but I would like to keep the forums a friendly place.
That being said, keep posting! I'm sure many members find them interesting. =)
THANK YOU. I read your arguments in the thread "What is the point of following christianity" and your EXCELLENT argument with a fundie in the miracles thread, and I have got to say that I admire you. You have voiced years of my frustration with fundies with perfect logic and elegance, against the bone-headed legions of christ. Again, thank you, friend!
Well the site hinted at it when I saw it by things like:
And:
Actually when I first saw it I thought it was legitimate... you can never tell. Some of the "arguments" there made more sense than those I've seen from theists, oddly enough.
im sorry i cannot accept your answer as truth. where is your solid proof? you say that atheists need solid proof to believe anything. where is your solid proof that solid proof will prove the existence of things? where is your solid proof that the universe is out there? where is your solid proof that brain is there? now tell me, have you personally ever beheld your solid proof? im very interested in your solid proof for everything you've said in your post.
Hi Plunkies! Thanks for your post in what is the point in following Christianity?! You were missing the most important reason why I think Christians are Christians. It isn't for convenience. It is because many of them never even consider the idea of questioning it. Many of them think, including my mother, "My parents and everyone told me it was right since I was very little so therefore I don't have to prove it!" Some people, like my father, say that they can justify their religion with logic and when they are beaten they go back and say, "You can't prove God, you have to have faith. You're asking good questions though. Too bad I conveniently can't answer them and I will never be able to."
Here's an informative article that you might like: http://graveyardofthegods.net/articles/cantprovenegative.html
And some odd reasoning from a theist...: http://iamatheist.com/arguments.html
Arguments for Theism
Arguments for Atheism